Passing on Letter Grades?

Guest Post by Andrew Leamy

Teacher, Duchess Park Secondary
in part, a response to the article "Passing on Letter Grades" by Alex Browne of the Peace Arch News -- http://www.peacearchnews.com/news/240169801.html

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It's interesting to imagine that a day of greater accountability is coming, when it seems every change we've made in the past 10 years has diminished student accountability. 

Provincial Exams? Gone.

Skip a test? Write it when you're ready.

Late penalties? Unthinkable.

Final Exams? How 'bout a project instead?

Plagiarize that research paper? Re-write it. Penalty? Why would there be one?

Copy off the smart kid beside you? You must not have been ready. When do you think you'll be ready for the re-write? Let me know.

Attendance? Come when you can. We'll be here. 5 days a week is a LOT to ask. We know you're busy.

No. You should never have to turn down a shift to finish a lab.

Poor grade? Here's some extra work to bump you up.

45%? Not Fair! Tough break. Here's a package.

A 0% for work not done? Madness. Here. Do it now. Or when you're ready. Or do this instead. Or this. When you're ready. We're here til June. July, even.

No, you're right. Summer is family time.

Essay too hard? Do a T chart.

Can't read the text? Fill in this template. I'll tell you what to write.

Of course you can have the notes with you for the test. What is this? The 90s?

No text? Here. I've run off some copies of the chapter just in case.

Any essay that only addresses one of the two required works will receive no more than a 4.

Miss a few assignments? We have make up days.

When? Every day is a make up day!

Fail a test? Of course you can re-write.

Quiz hurt your grade? Here's a re-write.

Working nights? Well, when can you be here? I'll wait.

Hawaii in January? Lucky kid! Here's a package.

Didn't get the package done? Here's another package.

Lost the second package? Here's an omit.

Basketball? Love it! Enjoy your Fridays. Let me know when you're ready to do the tests.

Laggard student? We must not be motivating you enough. We'll work on that. Sorry to have not engaged you.

Made it 3 days a week this week? Here's a Tim's card as a reward. Why not go next block?

Made it 5 days this week? What do you expect? A reward?

Stressed out by oral presentations? Sorry to hear that. Wanna do a T chart?

Logical Consequence? Sounds like a nasty code word for Unfair Punishment.

Anxious? I'm anxious, too. Perhaps if you studied, some of that anxiety might go away. Just kidding. We'll omit it.

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(I refuse to admit which of these very practices I have engaged in recently.)

I guess the question is, "Are our students (raised in the accountability climate sketched above) better off today than they were 10 years ago? Are they better students today than 10 years ago? Are our inputs leading to better outputs?

Am I turning into that toothless old man shaking his fist at passing cars as they speed down the street in front of his stoop? That yawping, toothless backyard mutt chained to and defending to the death the old rusted barbecue that is his dignity?

Does anyone else here ever have the nightmare that our own newly minted "best practices" might in fact be "worst practices", or that we who have perhaps the most invested in the system are wholly complicit in tearing it down?

Does anyone ever wonder if perhaps kids don't take school seriously because we encourage them in myriad ways not to?

Have kids changed because we've encouraged them to?

And when, in our schools, do we discuss this?

(Funny what you come up with when looking to avoid marking....) 

 

Cheers, Andrew

The Problem with Traditional Grades and Percentages

A Guest Post by Joseph Jeffery

Imagine a class, if you will, where 50% is a passing grade. A lot of people associate 50% with barely meeting the objectives of the course. What does '50%' even mean though? It is an average score that does not show if there is improvement in the person. 50% can represent someone who has always been 50%, it can be someone who was great (100%) and got worse. It can be someone who was 0% and got better.

How many students play the 'passing game'? How many university students play the 'I don't need this midterm to get my B' game? I know I certainly did at university. The system of grades is quite broken and does not do a good job of reflecting what a student can actually do, and it is especially bad at being a comparative measure between students.

Yes, it is an integral part of the current graduation and university entrance system, but saying that "it has always been that way so we shouldn't fix it" is a rather terrible argument. "Women's rights, LGBT rights, cultural rights, who needs them? After all the system has always been biased toward the white heterosexual male so why should we change it now" - Springs to mnid as an example of that mind set. Change is important, and necessary, and we ought not balk at it just because it's new.

Assessment 'for' learning has been proved to be a much more successful strategy than straight assessment 'of' learning (Black, 1999, and numerous studies since). Constant feedback loops are what make things work. It's the way in which any number of design principles involving clients are done from engineering to information technology. Even writing utilizes a feedback loop involving the editor.

As teachers, we do not recieve a grade from our administrator. In our first years as a teacher we recieve constant feedback from our administrator as to areas of improvement. Daily we recieve constant feedback from our students, in real time, based on their reactions to things taught, their manner in the class, and whether they appear to be grasping the subject or not. This feedback informs our practice (or it least it should!) and tells us what we need to do, and change. This kind of feedback is vital for us. Why do we then discount it when it comes to the child, letting a single letter define them? Think back to university, to high school, to your own experiences for a moment. Was the first thing you read on your work the comments, really took them in and internalized them? Or did you skip ahead to the last page, like me, and read the grade. If it was an A put it aside, if it was a D get horrified (or nod that it was a poor attempt written at 3 am because you had better things to do) and then read the comments and deny their validity? Probably, that is how most university students I knew worked. In fact, it irritated me to no end when I started teaching labs that the students never learned from their mistakes that I had helpfully pointed out in comments. 

Grades are a culture, and one that does not give rise to understanding of the material. Shallow learning that can easily be forgotten a year later is often the way of the game. There is little ownership, even in the best students, who are just out for top grades and rarely want something challenging, because it gets in the way of their perfect grade point average.

Should we change to no-grades overnight? Heck, no. Should we do it without decent thought, discourse, and debate? Heck, no. But should it at least be on the table? Yes!

This is of course, only my opinion, and you are entitled to yours, but I am all for opening up the discussion to serious consideration of this within SD57. 

Joesph Jeffery

Learning Commons Teacher
Highglen Montessori Elementary School

Jan 20th, 2014

Spring Fling coming

The 10th annual Educational Spring Fling is coming on April 4th, 2014. This is a one-day conference for teachers and other educators/community partners.

If you are interested in being a presenter, attending, or setting up a table in the vendor's area, check out what we have planned so far at http://pgdta.ca/pro-d

Professional Learning Log November 2013

SD57 had some great professional development opportunities on our Nov 29th Pro-D Day.

Taking kids outside for nature-based learning, presentation & discussion on project-based learning, exploring and addressing the reality of poverty, bootcamp for TTOCs, assistive technology... just a sample of the events promoted across the district. There were lots of workshops and organized PD that were site-based, or part of small groups, and a SmartLearning literary focus for one "family of schools." No doubt many individual teachers stuck it out alone, catching up on professional reading, taking a closer look at teaching & learning problem, or conducting inquiry. Maybe you made something, or taught somebody something, or challenged your own thinking.

Outside of our inner circles, we so seldom hear from each other about our professional learning on Pro-D days... it would be great to hear what you got up to on Friday. Consider leaving a comment below that describes briefly what you learned or got out of the Nov 29th Pro-D Day, and maybe a bit about the context.

Nov 29th PD Opportunities

There are a number of great opportunities lining up for professional development on the Nov 29th PD day (sign up on the Firstclass "PD ReG" feature):

• Project-Based Learning -- guest "Skype" presenters from Calgary and a PBL Edcamp; lunch provided (@PGSS Library) 
• Clicker 6 -- Hands On workshop for use of a "UDL" tool for special needs students and others in developing reading & writing (@Westwood) 
• Elementary Core French -- discussion and ongoing inquiry for matching instructional design to Core French ELOs (@Peden Hill) 
• Sub-Conscious TTOC mini-conference -- assessment, classroom management, Daily 5, support programs, classroom technology; lunch provided (@ D.P. Todd) 
• Below Zero -- connecting kids with nature... outdoor ed/nature play/environmental awareness, UNBC facilitators (@ Pinewood) 
• Foodsafe Level 1 Certification -- two sessions, one by Ab Ed dep't, one for general audience (@ SBO, Duchess) 
• Aboriginal Coaching Modules -- working with Aboriginal youth and athletes (@ Nusdeh Yoh) 
• Assistive Technology -- working with Boardmaker (@ Duchess) 
• Poverty: Exploring our Reality -- participant discussion and community panel (@ Van Bien) 
• Behaviour Intervention Strategies -- Ed Assistants and Youth Care Workers welcome (@ SBO) 

And some more that are not on "PDReg" -- contact the organizer to register:

• Printmaking - part of a Day of Art -- contact Val Wright (@Heather Park)
• Smart Learning with Susan Close -- follow-up on the work done the day before w/ Foothills, Quinson, Heritage -- contact Sarar McGuffie (@ Foothills)
• English Language Learners (ELL) teachers afternoon workshop -- lunch at Moxies, then Edcamp/Idea and Resource Sharing -- contact Tennys Scott (@PGSS) 
• Pre-Employment Program (PEP) teachers morning workshop -- resource review "7 HABITS OF HIGHLY EFFECTIVE TEENS" -- contact Gerry Chidiac (@Duchess ) 

Let the PD Coordinator know if you have other submissions or would like your school-based PD event shared with/for others. I'll update a little closer to Nov 29th.

Still looking for something to do? Here are some suggestions: http://sd57pd.blogspot.ca/2013/11/varieties-of-pd.html 

Don't forget, these 5 PD days we have each year are for your professional development. They represent the formal PD time that adds to all the informal PD you do through-out the year. They are 100% up to you as professionals to decide how to use (within some contractual goal-posts and generally accepted definitions of what constitutes PD). Know what PD means, what you want to get out of a PD day, and use them well! The PD Committee would love to hear how your Nov 29th day goes -- feel free to share your story.

Varieties of PD

Last week we had a fantastic Pro-D Rep Training session at the Van Bien T&D centre with BCTF facilitator Donna Bulmer. We had our best turnout in a decade -- 22 teachers school PD Reps and PD Committee members. Our agenda: explore the nature/purpose/possibility of PD models, growth plans, teacher inquiry, professional learning communities, and issues in professional development.

The feedback indicated that the PD reps each had a few new perspectives on how professional learning could be supported in their schools, and some fresh ideas on how to individual and group inquiry.

One of the "take-aways" was a reminder of the variety of forms that PD can take. Here were some suggestions:

1. Attend a conference/workshop locally.
2. Attend a conference/workshop regionally/provincially/nationally/internationally.
3. Attend a workshop/conference or summer institute/course.
4. Be a sponsor teacher for a student teacher.
5. Become a BCTF PD associate, and carry on the Teachers Teaching Teachers Tradition.
6. Become a BCTF Program Against Racism or Status of Women Program associate, and carry on the Teachers Teaching Teachers Tradition.
7. Become active in your local association.
8. Becoming a facilitator, and give a workshop locally, regionally, or provincially.
9. Begin/continue university studies.
10. Develop innovative programs for use in your classroom.
11. Develop an annual personal PD plan, and maintain a PD portfolio.
12. Explore the possibilities of bringing the BCTF’s Program for Quality Teaching to your local.
13. Form/join a teacher research group.
14. Participate in group planning.
15. Hop on the Internet through BCTF Online or another PD site.
16. Job-shadow in a related work situation.
17. Join a professional organization/network: Provincial specialist association (33 within the BCTF),  Local specialist association/Local Chapter of a PSA, International network (ASCD, MSCD)
18. Mentor a beginning teacher.
19. Observe another teacher, and talk together about the lesson/program.
20. Participate in curriculum development.
21. Pilot curriculum/program.
22. Read professional literature.
23. Reflect, discuss, and research for the purpose of planning individual or group ongoing professional development.
24. Develop the discipline of reflective journal keeping.
25. Serve as your school’s PD representative.
26. Share with colleagues what you found at a conference/workshop.
27. Subscribe to/read professional journals.
28. Watch professional videos.
29. Work on a provincial committee (MoE or BCTF).
30. Work on the Local Ed-Change Committee.
31. Work on your local’s PD committee.
32. Work with a colleague to discuss, observe, and critique a lesson/program (peer coaching).
33. Write professional articles for your local’s newsletter, your PSA’s publications, or Teacher newsmagazine.

Source: Tools for Self-directed Professional Development - http://www.bctf.ca/ProfessionalDevelopment.aspx?id=6380

To this list, I would add a few personal favourites:

1. Use a face-to-face get-together to "unpack, mull, and fuse" -- make sense of the professional learning and teaching stories that have occurred over the last month.
2. Use Social Media (like Twitter) to engage with a personal learning network, scan educational links and articles, or join live chats with other educators.
3. Map out an educational ecosystem -- lay out a big poster and make lists, webs, and sketches of what's happening in a teaching context (class, dep't, school): values, goals, evidence of progress, schemes, unifying projects, new roles for parents, observations on inclusion and differentiation, etc.

Feel free to leave a comment and share unique things you do to support your professional learning.

Beyond Search: Google Apps for Education

Guest Post by Jerry Bleecker, teacher at College Heights Secondary, Prince George School District 57

Learning, Sharing, Collaborating: Kamloops GAFE Summit 2013

Earlier this summer, I was perusing the web, looking for a professional development opportunity focused on educational technology and teaching in a flipped classroom. September being just around the corner, I was eager to see what other teachers were sharing and reflecting upon. One evening, I happened on a blog post where a teacher discussed how excited she was to attend a Google Applications for Education (GAFE) Conference. These conferences, I was to learn, are held world wide and are tremendous professional development opportunities for educators to share their experiences, network, and acquire new skills working with technology in the classroom. I signed up for the October 25th/26th Kamloops Conference, enthused by the glowing testimonials from the blog and from teachers commenting the conference was perhaps the best they’d attended in a very long while.

The days of summer went quickly, and October arrived before I knew it. Driving to the conference, I was excited by the itinerary I’d booked online the night before. There were so many sessions to choose from. First there was a keynote - Transformational Teaching and Learning with Technology. Then, there was Critical Thinking and the Web, Blended Learning Ecosystems, using Forms to Create a Choose Your Own Adventure Web-quest, and finally the Demo Slam, an opportunity for presenters to showcase unique technologies for learning. As the keynote began, there was a keen sense of anticipation, and the presenter, Ken Shelton, delivered a riveting discussion on the purpose of technology for learning. Never before has there been more opportunity to create understanding in a social context as exists today. Never before has the world been so connected with resources for learning, from Twitter to Facebook, YouTube, to online media. At the speed of the electron, the opportunity for human interaction and sharing is only a click away. Education, itself, stands at the precipice of the most networked opportunity in history. As I said, the keynote didn’t disappoint. It lead into sessions throughout the weekend that detailed the opportunities illustrated.

In my first session with Tanya Averith, I was impressed by the emphasis paid to creating empowered, knowledgeable digital citizens. Working alongside students, teachers need to impress and model how to critically evaluate information for authenticity and bias. Searching for information is quite insufficient next to knowing and evaluating its veracity. Tanya expertlyshowed numerous techniques for vetting soft information(online information), websites, and demonstrated power tips for more effective searching. “A Google Certified Teacher and Apple Distinguished Educator from Montreal, Canada”, Tanya teaches Educational Technology and Digital Citizenship as a Lead Teacher for the Lester B. Pearson School Board. I was amazed by her zeal, knowledge, and forthright enthusiasm for the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead with educational technology.

In my second session, I had the opportunity to learn with Michael Wacker. A former elementary teacher, Michael served as an Online and Adult Learning Specialist and helped spearhead the implementation of Google Apps for Education in his district. Posting a simple website address at the start of our session, Michael challenged a room of forty educators to simultaneously edit a single Google word processing document and collaborate in real time on how teachers were using educational technology to provide a blended learning opportunity. The highlight of the session was the collaborative document teachers created together in a few short minutes.

Rounding out my first day, I attended Michelle Armstrong’s session using Google Forms to create a Choose Your Own Adventure quest. Using a series of yes and no decisions, Google forms is an incredible way to tell stories in the genre of Choose Your Own Adventure. With a bit of coaching that highlighted examples of how to create forms, Michelle set a group of thirty educators to work creating their adventures. With my head swimming with information and incredible possibilities from a full day of conferencing, I set to creating my quest. Here it is for your enjoyment - brief, but true to the genre. It was incredibly fun to create, and I was almost taken aback with the ease in its creation and ability to share.

Spent, I returned to my hotel amazed by the educational possibilities, philosophies of digital citizenship, and opportunities to share and collaborate using readily available Google applications. Google, it turns out, is much more than a company focused on search. There is an educational tenet of collaboration and exploring evident in the tools provided and presentation of their use in unique, social, and fascinating pedagogical ways.

Day two, I awoke two hours earlier than normal, eagerly anticipating my second day. Spending much of my time with Tanya Averith, we explored digital portfolios and the amazing continuum of student achievement cataloged and brought to life by students from their elementary years to graduation. One key quote had a hauntingly prophetic ring. “If you Google yourself online,” Tanya said, “what result will you see? Students are putting so much information online, isn’t it better to be a knowledgeable guide, helping them create a positive digital identity than forgoing this responsibility?” I was struck the importance of these sentiments. A digital reputation is simply a fact in a modern world, connected by social media and the World Wide Web. Working with students to create a positive digital persona that reflects their accomplishments and values suddenly struck me as a key responsibility we as educators hadn’t adequately considered. !

For much of the afternoon on the second day, I attended seminars examining how to bridge the digital divide and provide students with online software and technology for learning. While each presenter demonstrated technologies - Google Drive, word processing, slideshows, and forms, I was struck by the diversity of machinery at the conference. Many presenters used MacBooks. Kamloops teachers and technicians attending used Chromebooks, a new low-cost Linux-based laptop running the Chrome web browser as the chief environment for applications, and web programs. There was a myriad of devices, Apple, Google, Windows, etc. but each running Chrome was able to access documents, share interactions, and load cloud applications. I learned Chrome extensions provided additional software abilities and functionality to meet virtually any software need, from creating podcasts to editing digital video and publishing it online to YouTube, Vimeo, etc. The Kamloops School District has in fact, moved to adopting Google Apps for Education and has invested in low-cost Chromebook (laptop) and Chromebox (mini-Desktop) technology in a manner that provides incredible indemnified tech support from Google, Cloud storage, applications for learning, and more. Considering that average desktop technologies running Windows average $700-$1000, the cost savings alone from highly secured Chromebooks ($270-$400) was impressive. Considering the advantage of Google Applications, secure cloud storage, and an expansive list of web programs to install in Chrome, the value for students and educators was readily apparent. The Roadmap for Successful Implementation of Chromebooks was informative on so many levels. I left hoping to communicate these incredible advantages to my own district. Providing teachers and ideally, students, with a portable cloud- based, secure, indemnified device with so much free software creates an opportunity for learners to work from home, creating new materials to share and promote learning in a 21st Century, Web 2.0, socially connected world.

As the Summit concluded, there was a palpable sentiment that teachers couldn’t wait for the next opportunity to return next year and share their experiences using Google Apps for Education and what they’d created, and what they’d done with educational technology to improve their teaching and the learning of their students. The tools weren’t the point, the rationale for their implementation was. However, these are undeniably excellent tools in a fabulously connected online medium - Google.

There were just three teachers from SD57 at the Kamloops GAFE Summit. Next year, I hope to convince many more to travel to Kamloops for the proposed 2014 GAFE Summit. If you don’t wish to wait that long, here is the master schedule. I highly enjoyed the Summit and look forward to attending next year. The philosophies, reflections, training, and collaboration from this experience have already resounded in classroom opportunities for my students. Oddly enough, it feels like my students and I are just getting started.

Jerry

kazoo pedagogy

Guest Post by Trina Chivilo, teacher at Harwin Elementary, Prince George School District 57

Teacher As Songwriter: Kazoo Pedagogy and Professional Development

I am in my sixth year as a certified teacher, the last four years in a Kindergarten classroom. That’s probably the first thing to know about me; I am brave. Good thing too, because in the summer of 2013, I engaged in an extraordinary learning experience; I took an intensive song-writing workshop with Canadian folk-children music guru Fred Penner!

By the end of the school year I was anticipating an assignment change from Kindergarten to Music education K-7, so, I sought an opportunity to hone this side of my craft, or more correctly to bridge what was a personal joy into a professional skill. I found my opportunity with ten other songwriters in Wells, BC where we worked with and wrote songs with the beloved Winnipeg-based song-writer and performer.

It was a great week and a great professional development experience. Immersed in a provoking, generous, and collaborative musical community, I wrote four songs in four days. I was both humbled and nurtured as I risked and grew - something midst my deep interests and where I needed to be stretched. My teaching practice is expanding because of this professional development and so far, student engagement is high in my new music classroom. Three of the songs I wrote we will sing this year as repertoire in a new school choir. Now I can teach students, in small steps, how to write their own songs because I have learned a method from one of Canada’s heros. It’s going to be a great year.

In celebration of my learning with Fred Penner, I asked my school to buy 90 kazoos. I have introduced this hum-driven, buzzy-sounding instrument from the 19th century to the intermediate classes. The students are using kazoos to hear, match, and echo pitch; to play in unison, as ensemble, or as solo; to add accent, colour, or texture to musical phrases. We are having a blast discovering as we create, play, and collaborate. Most of the Grade Seven boys have yet to realize that they are also learning to sing in pitch. Ta da! Soon we will be writing songs.

Thanks for taking the time to read about what one ordinary teacher does while engaged in professional learning and practice. I hope you are inspired some time to share about your own teacher learning journey and the who or what that is inspiring you.

Trina


Photo: Fred Penner and Trina Chivilo, IMA Songwriter’s Showcase, Bear’s Paw Cafe, Wells, BC August 2013

ArtsWells Festival of All Things Art: http://www.artswells.com

The PD Committee

After two PGDTA Professional Development Committee Meetings, it has become clear that we have a great team in place with profound respect for autonomous professionalism among teachers, a desire for mutual accountability, and creative ideas for change.

We have tried to clear much of the administrivia and information-only items from our meetings in order to focus on dialogue and planning. This respects the fact that our committee members are not passive attendees but actual PD leaders in the district. Last year the PD Committee began talking about how their role might shift, including that of the Chair, and how the use of the PD Fund might shift as a result. This year, after two meetings, I think we are ready to describe what that shift might look like. These four items represent the core of a vision, and will give us plenty to mull over for the remaining seven meetings ahead in 2013-14:

1. Committee: the committee should have more opportunities to lead PD whether this is facilitation, presentation, or organization -- and also share in the promotion and celebration of the PD of others. One way this might happen is to conduct conference participant interviews with the aim to publish short celebrations of learning for other educators and the public.
2. PD Fund administrator: as PD chair and also in possession of a half-time coordinator's position, this person should be as active as possible on the professional learning side of the equation as the Fund administration duties; while it is already a busy job with pulls in many directions, there is always room to change how it is used. Solid precedents have been set by the past Chairs' involvement in Learning Partners, facilitating teacher inquiry projects, and the work of organizing the Zone Conference.
3. Fund applicants: we need to adjust our policies and do more to make use of the professional learning that takes place when we send teachers off to conferences. We did not used to have many expectations for what participants did with what they learned -- a very basic paper report was the default. We need to provide more and different opportunities for teachers to share -- not everyone wants to put on a workshop.
4. The PD Fund: currently, we allocate about 67% of the fund to out-of-district travel, 5% to in-district registration, 19% to the Zone Conference, 8% to special projects, and 1% to other items. We would like to develop strategies so that big-ticket items (conference travel) results in maximum benefit to teachers and their students. This may mean shifting some of the allocation towards more in-district events where more local teachers can access high-quality PD speakers and workshops, and also begin using part of the Fund to promote local talent and build capacity.

Robson Valley Fall Conference

The McBride-Valemount Teacher's Association, a local of the Prince George Teacher's Association, is excited to host a mini-conference on the Friday October 25th Professional Development Day. The 8:45-3:00 session takes place at McBride Secondary.

Session topics for primary and intermediate teachers:

• Math (am for Primary, pm for Intermediate) - presenter: Brian Hatcher, SD57 Math Resource Teacher
• Educational Technology (am) - facilitator: Joel Zahn, McBride teacher

Session topics for intermediate and secondary teachers:

• Project-based Learning - special guest presenter: Stephen Chase, Prince George teacher
• The Magic Egg - working with Pysanky

See full descriptions here (word file).

Registration is free, lunch provided. If space is available, administrators and parents are welcome to join, as are participants from outside the Robson Valley. Mileage can be claimed for PGDTA members if applied for by Oct 18th. 

Please contact McBride teacher Jill Howard (jhoward @ sd57.bc.ca) or Valemount teacher Brian Hanson (bhanson @ sd57.bc. ca) if you are interested, and contact Glen Thielmann (gthielmann @ sd57.bc.ca) if you intend to claim mileage or accommodation, or simply fill in an Individual PD Form and submit by Oct. 18th.  Here are some cabins for rent in McBride (sleep 3-4): http://www.mcbridebc.ca. I believe there are others, too.